Tantra, Drive and Confidence: Men's Sexual Mastery with Kirsten Trammell

Susan Taylor, MA (: 00:01

Well, welcome everybody to today's episode of the Sex Talk Cafe. And I am very excited to have my guest today, Kirsten Trammell. Kirsten is a certified sex coach under the VITA methodology, a tantric and holistic approach to sex, love, and relationships. She's also the host of the Naked Connection podcast, which is a show supporting driven men to reach sexual mastery and build deep connections. Kirsten is on a mission to help men build meaningful romantic connections so they can live with purpose and freedom. And Kirsten is also currently

Susan Taylor, MA (: 01:10

gaining licensing hours to become a sex therapist. Kirsten, welcome to the Sex Talk Cafe.

Kirsten Trammell (: 01:16

Thank you so much for having me.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 01:18

Yeah, well, I'm excited about our topic on men's sexuality because I think this is such a great conversation and there's just so, so much confusion out there, I think, in the realm of men's sexuality. So I'm really excited to see what kind of light you can shed for our listeners today on this really exciting topic. And before we kind of really dive into the juiciness of that, I would love to know, and I'd love for our listeners just to know a little bit more about you and how you got on this path and specifically why men.

Why do you want to work with men? Or why do you enjoy working with men's sexuality?

Kirsten Trammell (: 01:50

Yeah, yeah, it's always funny. don't most people that work in the space of sex or sexuality relationships are like little kids born into wanting to do this type of work. But I know for me, this really all started probably like nine, 10 years ago in my personal experience where I was in one of those on and off kind of unhealthy dynamic relationships where I was feeling.

you know, just really exhausted and depleted. And I didn't really know at the time how to have the type of pleasurable, expansive sex that I knew was possible. And I also really felt, I felt embarrassed and didn't really know who to talk to about it. And so everything kind of shifted for me when this relationship ended and I was left really recognizing that I had kind of lost myself in that relationship.

and that there was this pattern that I was experiencing in my romantic life that I recognized if I didn't address this, it was probably just gonna keep playing out and playing out. So was kind of like one of those rock bottom moments of my heart, if you will. And it was from that place that I knew I needed to change something. So I really went on this mission actually of learning as much as I possibly could about relationships, about sex, about connection.

And at first it started as just being something that I wanted to learn for myself. And slowly over time, I really started to recognize the power that this part of our life has. And I came to really understand that, you know, our sex life has the power to really influence the wellbeing of the rest of our life. And as soon as I started to really see and feel that for myself and learning about it in other spaces, I knew, okay, I want to...

I went down the path of becoming a sex coach and then now working towards becoming a sex therapist just because I see how powerful and important this is. And, you know, in light of the part of like why men? While I was going through all of this, I really had like really beautiful experiences of connecting with communities of women and having resources that were really focused on women's sexuality and exploring that part for us. I...

Like this question kept coming into my mind of like, where is this for men? Like where, where, where do the guys get to have this? And, that it just was kind of this question noodling in the back of my head for a number of years to the point where I decided I was going to go out and interview a bunch of men that I kind of knew in my community and in my peripheral.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 04:20

Thank

Kirsten Trammell (: 04:38

And I had these really incredible conversations with them about sex, about relationships, about their desires, about what they wish people knew, but they weren't talking about just all of these really, really incredible, incredible topics. And it was from there that I really started to see like, wow, there's so much here that isn't necessarily being touched on. And I have just so much respect and awe for men and just so much, I feel blessed to have really beautiful.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 04:50

you

Kirsten Trammell (: 05:09

examples of great men in my life and wanted to be able to give something to them because you know I think when a man can be a really incredible partner, incredible lover, not only is that powerful for him but I mean it helps everyone else in the world and there's just so much potential in that.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 05:29

Absolutely. And what would you say are the main challenges that you see men face when it comes to sex and sexuality, just their identity as men, as sexual beings?

Kirsten Trammell (: 05:37

Go.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting when I think back about when I first initially was doing all of these interviews and questions, one of the biggest things was I would ask, you know, what is something that you wish women knew or just wish that society recognized that we don't? And it was, you know, some variation of like, we have desires and feelings too.

and that there wasn't necessarily a place for that to be held or expressed or acknowledged. And I think that that is something just from the relational aspect that comes up. And then looking at the sexual piece was really, you know, kind of feeling like sexual desires that they innately had were not really welcomed.

And really, you know, what can happen when you have this like kink or fetish or just a desire and you feel like you can't express it, the profound impact that that ultimately has on an individual's psyche as well as their physical body and just how they can show up in the space of sex.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 06:53

Yeah, I mean, that was gonna be kind of what I was gonna ask you about next is I do feel that that is sort of a theme out there in the world that a lot of men are, we're all sort of shamed to a certain degree, but men especially are sort of like shamed for getting a boner like during a massage or shamed for wanting sex all the time to the extent that in some of the couples that I've worked with.

I've seen where men feel like they have to actually like shut their desire down so that their partner will feel safe. Like their desire is too much. And so what they do is they learn, they just train themselves to not feel it, to like control it and to shut it down. And I'm really curious how, A, I'm sure you see that in your work if you're working with men and how do you approach that? And what would your suggestion be for a man maybe who's listening right now, who's really resonating with this message?

Kirsten Trammell (: 07:31

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think the first thing that comes up for me is recognizing the practice of them just becoming aware for themselves first. Because I think a lot of times what can happen, as you described, I'm even thinking when you're younger of getting like NRBs, no reason boners, and just like things that start happening when you're young that feel kind of shaming and just looking at the patterns of masturbation that can happen, all those sorts of things is first.

practicing being aware of like, what is it that I really do desire? And can I first hold that for myself and be okay with that for myself? And then, you know, bringing that to if you're in a partnership of sharing that I do have these desires and having kind of that communication component as well. But I think first starting with, can I be comfortable with what it is that I really desire first and foremost? Yeah.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 08:43

Yeah, and what about men who maybe have been rejected? Like they're okay with bringing that desire to their partner, but they get rejected every time they do, or shamed or dismissed.

Kirsten Trammell (: 08:53

Yeah, yeah, and I guess to that point, like, my question would be around, you know, like, what beliefs come up for you in that moment? Like, what do you make that rejection mean about you? You know, I think a lot of the times, you know, if someone comes forward and you say, have this this big desire, like, I want to have sex all of the time, and it's being rejected, like, what, what is the thought there about the self?

Susan Taylor, MA (: 09:07

Hmm.

Kirsten Trammell (: 09:22

And how can we, know, like in narrative therapy, how can we like rewrite a different story to that? Because I think that we can take rejection to make it mean all of these different things. And that can really create a lot of unspoken resentment in a relationship dynamic.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 09:40

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that can be a really tough one, like when that happens. I think, tell me if you find this to be true, but it seems like men really experience, one of the ways that men experience appreciation is through sex. Like sex is, if you wanted to show a man that you appreciate him, like sex is literally his language for appreciation. And so if he's getting constantly rejected or he's not feeling welcomed or invited,

Kirsten Trammell (: 09:46

Mm-hmm.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 10:10

sexually by his partner, I think that that can really have a big impact on his psyche as a man and his identity as a man. Do you find that to be true?

Kirsten Trammell (: 10:16

Mm-hmm.

Completely, yeah. This is making me think of, I was recently working with a client who shared, he basically said, if I share my desires, it would get really dark because I would just want to have sex all of the time and I can't even bring that to my partner. Yeah, and just noticing how heavy that can become. I think that there's, I'm curious what your thought is and.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 10:37

wow.

Kirsten Trammell (: 10:49

and I know you work with couples a lot of like how to navigate it, even being able to acknowledge, I understand that you don't wanna have sex as much as I do and I respect that and I understand that and at the same time, like this repeated rejection, I feel like X, Y, Z, whatever the feeling that's coming up, like I feel ashamed of myself for having these desires and being able to express that to a partner so that...

Susan Taylor, MA (: 11:13

Wow.

Kirsten Trammell (: 11:16

they understand a little bit more openly what is going on.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 11:18

Yeah.

Yeah, I think around that piece, like what I've really found to be helpful is teaching couples how to celebrate one another's desire because an expression of desire, if my partner just says, want X, Y, Z, that's actually, that's not really a request. That's just an expression of his desire and vice versa.

So there's a real difference and I think there's something like really important about understanding that, like understanding the difference between expression of a desire and making a request for your partner to fulfill that desire, two different things. And it seems like there's a lot of unwinding that often needs to happen with that piece of like, there's been so much like shaming or rejection and they're afraid to speak up.

If we can just learn to sit in a neutral space with it and like, wow, that's cool. I hear that you want X, Y, Z. That's amazing. Like just being in a place of like receptivity and acceptance of it can be so healing. And then the negotiating of the thing or not is a totally separate, it's a totally different issue. It's a different conversation and a different set of skills. So that's one thing that I have found to be like really helpful in the couple situation.

Kirsten Trammell (: 12:27

Yeah, yeah, I actually had kind of an experiment that I was doing with a client where, because he was feeling like he couldn't express what it was that he desired, and so we kind of removed the sexual component of it and did an experiment of, like, in the other aspects of your life, do you feel comfortable actually expressing what it is that you're desiring? Whether, like, even like simple things like,

Susan Taylor, MA (: 12:40

here.

Yeah.

Kirsten Trammell (: 12:54

what you want to have for dinner or what movie you want to watch or what route you want to take on your walk with the dogs. Like how can you play with expressing your desires that might at first kind of remove all of the layers that come with expressing a sexual desire first so that then kind of teaching the body, okay, it's okay to say what it is that I desire.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 13:09

Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah, I love that. Because it's so vulnerable. Expressing what we want is one of the most vulnerable things we do. So tell us about the VITA method. So what is the VITA method for those who have not heard of this? And how does that inform your work with men?

Kirsten Trammell (: 13:22

Yes.

in

So yeah, it's really just the kind of program that I did my sex and relationship training through in order to become a sex and relationship coach. And it really looks at incorporating tantric practices and really like kind of proceeding tantric practices, holistic practices of just really foundational tools to have deeper, more meaningful, pleasurable, expansive sex.

So that was really the lens through which I learned to work with and facilitate.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 14:05

I love it, and I would love to talk about this tantra piece because I feel like that word is so thrown around and so misunderstood and there's a real confusion out there of what tantra is and what it means. I know there's different threads of it and I'm really curious if you would just tell her, give a little distinction for that because I think that there's just a lot of confusion over what that is. So maybe talk about that a little bit and clarify that for our listeners.

Kirsten Trammell (: 14:35

Yeah, definitely. It is funny, think often like a preconceived notion is it's like these like crazy positions or like marathon sex, which like, I mean, it can be, there's like, when I really started studying tantra and noticing, know, yes, there is a component where sex is a piece of that. It's really a beautiful philosophy and...

I look at it kind of through a spiritual lens and recognizing one of the foundational ideologies is really that everything is divine. And divine could mean, I like to share it from this perspective, it could mean what resonates with you, whether that's God or energy or love or peace, whatever kind of your take on divinity might be and noticing.

when everything is divine, how can you bring that into a relationship, into a connection and in this space of sexuality, looking at each sensation, each expression, looking at your partner as being this divine being as well as you being a divine being and how can we explore life from that lens of seeing all as this beautiful divinity and I think just kind of touching on the piece of

of looking at the lens of tantra and all of the different layers, I kind of use the analogy of when people say that, when someone describes themselves as a yogi, right, there's the asanas, the physical postures and practices, and that's just one component of being a yogi, but there's also looking at Ayurvedic medicine and a philosophy and like...

this whole language and there's just so many components that go into that style of life and the same is kind of true for Tantra as well.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 16:29

that specifically or the tantric approach like how is that helpful for men specifically with some of the things that men tend to struggle with in sex?

Kirsten Trammell (: 16:40

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, when you look at kind of some of the, I don't know if I like to use the word dysfunctions, but just some of the more physical struggles that men have, whether it's premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction, and some of the roots of those is really often a disconnection from the self and from the body and the mind in a lot of ways.

know, tantric practices can really be a powerful strategy and method or approach to bring more presence and awareness into your body so that you can have, you know, longer and more longer erections, more intense orgasms, more connection with your partner. So I kind of think that in a lot of ways, if someone is having some struggles in their sex life, like through one of these

dynamics that implementing tantric practices can be a really powerful way to unwind some of that.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 17:44

Yeah, would you be willing to give an example of a tantric practice that you might use of the man who, let's say, has a challenge with either erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation? What might you do that would help him with that?

Kirsten Trammell (: 17:57

Yeah, so as an example, in terms of, I'm just trying to think of one, in terms of premature ejaculation, there's really beautiful massage practices that a man can do where you are actually giving yourself a penis massage whether you're not necessarily needing to be aroused, but just building connection to this part of your body and exploring the sensations.

the texture, the tone of this part of your body. And as moving through this practice, really cannot stress enough the power of breath and how important that is when it comes to some of these practices. So shifting from taking these shallow short breaths in the chest into taking deeper breaths from the base of your belly and filling your body with that.

and incorporating a deeper, slower breath into this penis massage where you're stroking yourself, you're exploring yourself, and really as moving through this, kind of like I'm layering on here, but inviting in almost like affirmations to yourself about, you know, how incredible your penis is, how powerful.

and wonderful it can be, what kind of life it brings to you, what kind of energy it brings to you, and almost entering into a meditative state with this part of your body and the power that holds in this, like really in your sexual center and generating more of a relationship with this part of yourself from a more loving present space.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 19:38

Hmm, I love that. We underestimate the power of the breath, I think, and being present.

Kirsten Trammell (: 19:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think on that note, one thing, know, I think that like rightly or wrongly, most people receive their sex education from porn. And something that I really started to notice is that a lot of the times in, you know, pornographic films that when it comes to like the sound.

that you can hear. It's like usually typically just the woman and she's moaning and breathing and speaking and then like there really isn't a lot of tone or sound coming from the men and it's probably because it's most guys aren't trying to get off to the sound of another guy. yeah and kind of what can happen from that especially if someone is you know exploring sex and they're younger and that's kind of their education. A lot of men can then take on this kind of more silent stoic

Susan Taylor, MA (: 20:25

Yeah. Right.

Kirsten Trammell (: 20:41

sound during sex and there's so much power that can come from not only inviting in deeper breath and slower breath but also allowing tone to be released. So another practice that and this is like so accessible to anyone is to as you are you know either doing a body scan or you know in a self-pleasure practice

Susan Taylor, MA (: 20:53

you

Kirsten Trammell (: 21:07

bringing your awareness to different parts of your body. And as you're taking those exhales, actually exhaling the tone of what that body part actually feels like. And that can be such a powerful way for men or really anyone to really connect with what the body is feeling and experiencing. And there's just so much power that comes from sound that I think is underestimated when it comes to sex.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 21:17

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting, because I haven't seen that particular practice as being one that is used for a lot of men. And so I'd love to hear you say that that can be such a useful. Having access to that, I would think, would be a really wonderful way that could add more access to more range or more ability to feel more just through using sound as a tool for men. I see that.

Kirsten Trammell (: 21:45

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 22:04

practice use a lot for women and women's sexuality but I haven't heard it so much to use for men. It makes sense though.

Kirsten Trammell (: 22:11

Yeah, yeah, and I just think that there's so much beauty in that and hearing a man really express himself and feel like he can take up space in that way is really incredible.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 22:25

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What are some of the main things that you address in your work uniquely? Obviously, ED and PE, I'm sure. But are there any other things specifically that men seek out your help for?

Kirsten Trammell (: 22:40

Yeah, I think one of the main things that ends up coming up in this work and whether it's their kind of covert intention or not is really looking at feeling more confident in sex and how often that can kind of be like a layer beneath the initial, this is kind of like my problem or what I'm looking for help with and oftentimes that's at the root of it.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 23:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah, confidence. And that's a really common one. And what would you say is that really at the core of a lack of confidence in sex for most men, at least in your practice?

Kirsten Trammell (: 23:19

Yeah, you know, oftentimes it's a couple of things. Like the first thing that comes to my mind is just really not having had access to conversations about sex when they were younger and feeling like, you know, I wish that my dad had been more open with me or I wish that I could have had like someone that I could have asked these questions about, you know, like these things were happening to my body and I didn't really know what to do with it. Or I liked a girl, but I didn't really know like.

what to do when we hooked up for the first time and it was really uncomfortable and awkward and that all just gets buried and so that is like kind of one of the first things that comes to mind.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 24:03

Yeah, well, yeah, and most of us are not getting, like you said, the education is non-existent. And if at all, a lot of times it does come through porn, which is not at all realistic. And I think there can really be some negative impacts of that on a man's sexual identity and how he shows up sexually. just kind of curious what your take is. What have you seen in your work with men in terms of how porn can have a negative impact on their sex life?

Kirsten Trammell (: 24:32

Yeah, I mean, I think that like what can often happen is just the influence of a man's like masturbation practice and how that doesn't necessarily translate to them having the type of sex that they want to be having. And so oftentimes, you know, like just getting really basic, let's say a man is, you know, watching porn and, you know, masturbating like really hard, really fast, really firmly.

And that's kind of like the, the MO, if you will, of, that experience. And then they step into a sexual experience and feel like this isn't, I'm not able to last as long as I want. I don't feel clear on what to do next. Like there's all of these kinds of questions that come. And then also having the feeling of like, but this isn't turning out like what I was watching. Yeah. And so.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 25:06

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Kirsten Trammell (: 25:30

that is kind of like a pattern that I've recognized. And so really looking at how can we take your masturbation practices or some people call it self pleasure practices and turn that into really, I don't know, use the word like training ground, if you will, to not only improve your sexual skills, but also use that time to more fully connect with yourself and your true desires compared to

kind of like going into fantasy or watching fantasy and actually being pretty disconnected from your body.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 26:03

All right.

Yeah, because I find that there's sometimes, I don't know if you've encountered this in your work, but there can be a real resistance to letting go of the fantasy, relying on mental fantasy and then also the use of porn. Like that suggestion can sometimes be really shocking, I think, to some people or some men because they're so accustomed to that, that they're maybe afraid they're going to lose something if they don't have that or they're not going to be able, like it won't quote unquote work.

Like if I don't use that, like it won't work. I don't feel as much is a really common thing. think that happens. And I mean, I think you know what that's about and you know the pathway out of that, right? The slowing down, the getting more present, developing sensation or sensitivity in the genitals instead of all that, you know, really hard, hard and fast going for the ejaculation. what, mean, I'm just curious, have you run into that?

Any resistance as you have worked with men and sort of suggested some other approaches, any resistance that you've come up against? Because I know that I've seen, I mean, I don't specifically work with men, but I have and I have couples I work with and that suggestion can sometimes be really shocking.

Kirsten Trammell (: 27:19

Yeah, yeah, a couple of thoughts come to mind. I think that if there's a woman listening perhaps, or sometimes if there's a couple and a woman is like, why are you watching this porn? And there's all these thoughts about that of kind of likening it to, a lot of women rely on vibrators during masturbation or self pleasure. And so just kind of like, if you took that away, I think a lot of women would be like.

what do I do now? So kind of, yeah, yeah, like similar, but kind of different in that experience. And so just kind of offering that as a way to perhaps be able to kind of see what might be unfolding for your partner. So I just want to share that right off the bat. And I totally just lost my train of thought.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 27:49

Yeah, yeah, it's the same problem,

that's okay. were talking. It happens. It happens here on the sex talk.

Kirsten Trammell (: 28:15

I was like, I had like three things coming

into my head.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 28:19

So

we were talking about the desensitization that can happen and then sometimes the men that have a resistance to trying a different approach, try masturbating without using porn, try masturbating without using fantasy, that there can be some kickback to that sometimes from the men themselves. Yeah.

Kirsten Trammell (: 28:23

Yes, yes.

Yes, thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. So,

so one of the things too that, you know, in when I work in this space is, and everyone kind of has different schools of thought, but also recognizing that, you know, I'm not going to tell someone like 100 % never watch porn again, like, in, kind of thinking about it from the lens of let's say, for every, you know, three or four times that you're self-pleasuring or that you're masturbating.

just start with one time experimenting without using porn. How does it go? Maybe, just whether you lead to orgasm or not, just taking that time and committing to that practice without it and see what happens, right? You know, just like how we become reliant on things. I think sometimes there's a way of kind of slowly unwinding that and...

Susan Taylor, MA (: 29:06

Yeah.

Right, right, like we don't

have to dive in all at once and just go cold turkey right off the cliff.

Kirsten Trammell (: 29:34

Yeah, yeah. And

I think along the way you can kind of start to, a man can start to recognize, you know, the times with versus without what's actually different, like what am I feeling in my body? And starting to really, you know, because understanding how is this porn helping me? And how can I take that and apply it in different ways in my life, in my sex life? So that's a little piece of it as well. And also,

Susan Taylor, MA (: 29:46

Right.

Kirsten Trammell (: 30:02

just understanding there's really this kind of like desensitization that is gonna unfold and it isn't necessarily going to be like really quick and easy and at the same time knowing that what can be on the other side of that is really, really different and a more expansive possibility of what's available.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 30:08

right.

Yeah,

and that's the piece that I find is a hard sell sometimes because I feel that men, well, women also, but I think there's sort of a unique wiring in men with the need to ejaculate. I mean, they're creating millions of sperm in a day and there's sort of really this urge and that, and I have heard this from men themselves, that ejaculation can be somewhat addictive. Like it just becomes sort of like a need, like they have

Kirsten Trammell (: 30:30

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 30:53

to have it or they have to do that to be able to relax and to able to go to sleep. So it seems that that can be a tough sell because there's more on the other side of that. Like think if a man learns how to not have to go for the ejaculation, at least not as the goal of a masturbation practice, like one of those, one time this week, that's gonna be the experiment, right? Like you just said.

that there can be a lot of resistance to that. there's sort of, don't know what's on the other side until they've actually tasted it. But sometimes there's such a habit and almost an addiction to that ejaculation that they have a resistance in really trying anything new. Because most likely they're not gonna feel, if they're used to using porn and a lot of excitement and a lot of hard and fast masturbation techniques, they're probably not gonna feel a whole lot like when they first.

try a different approach, right? They're not gonna have a lot of sensitivity yet. But like you said, there's so much more on the other side of that if they stick with it and cultivate that. And just curious what your advice would be for this. Like why would or why should a man bother to do something different if what he's doing feels really good and it gets him off and why bother with trying something new that maybe is gonna take some work and...

And he's not so sure what's on the other side. He's not sold yet because he hasn't tasted it.

Kirsten Trammell (: 32:20

Yeah, it's like that, you know, the saying that often comes to my mind in this type of conversation is like, if it isn't broken, then why fix it? And so I think for a lot of men, you know, they're like, well, but this works for me and I have this orgasm and it feels really great and I get this release and I, you know, have all of these endorphins running through my body. Like, why would I stop myself from having that experience? You know, like, why would I?

Susan Taylor, MA (: 32:29

Hmm.

Sure.

Kirsten Trammell (: 32:47

subject myself to this. And so I totally, I totally understand why you might have those thoughts or why you might come from that space. And, know, it's not to say that there's anything innately wrong or bad about being in that space. And at the same time, you know, there are things that are accessible to you if you choose to go down that route. And I think that

you know, when you look at the ability to have prolonged, have prolonged sex with your partner or the capacity to explore, you know, full body orgasms and, yeah, and not just having this orgasmic sensation like centralized on your cock or in your sexual center, but actually experiencing that in your whole entire body, you know, and a lot of these practices also enable you to

Susan Taylor, MA (: 33:28

Ooh, yeah.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Kirsten Trammell (: 33:45

you know, decide more clearly when you want to orgasm. So being able to orgasm with your partner when they reach their peak and having that experience together, you know, there's just so much that's possible. And I think also I'll add on this about, you know, I think sometimes that, you know, we get into this space of like sex is this physical act and like there's this physical pleasure.

And that it's also possible to have these really deeply emotional and sensational experiences and also spiritual experience as well that you can start to invite in. And, you know, I think especially looking at, you know, couples that have, you know, kind of gone through that honeymoon phase or maybe they've reached a plateau and they've kind of gotten into this like stale state within their sex life that, you know, this can be a really great way to invite in some

newness into your experiences together and really take you into a different place so that you know if you have a partner that's kind of like not always down to have sex with you when you are part of the reason might be and I know we talked about this when you came on on my podcast which is so amazing but part of it might be that maybe they're not experiencing the type of sex that they're hoping for and like by stepping into this you can bring that into the onto the table for them as well.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 35:07

That's hot. Yeah,

because that was gonna be my next question is like what are some of the benefits? What can a man and you just answered it? I mean, wow to be able to have a full-body orgasmic experience How freaking cool is that to have more extended pleasure to be able to have a deeper connection with your partner? I know that that's one of the number one things when I work with couples that they they're struggling with They want a deeper connection. They don't know how to get it and what you're speaking to is literally one of the ways

to cultivate that, where it goes beyond just the physical. Because I know, like, personally, in my past relationship, when I was married many years ago, I really, it just felt like just sex. Like, there just wasn't a lot of depth there. And, you know, that time I really didn't know how to create it, I have the skills, the tools, the knowledge, the education, all the stuff that I have now.

And I think that so many women do tend to lose interest because it's just sex. For a lot of men, it seems like that's fine for a lot of men. Not all. I think men, as they get in longer-term relationships and they mature, they do tend to want more emotional connection and a deeper something. But generally speaking, seems like the just sex is kind of, that's enough for most men. It's like eating a bowl of ice cream.

But I know for women and for the men listening who maybe have partners who are rejecting them a lot or aren't as interested in sex, what Kirsten is speaking to right now could be one of the reasons why, because there's just not as much in it for her. And what you're speaking to is there is a way that you as a man can develop more sexual mastery by learning some different approaches and having some new tools in your toolkit for how to experience your own body, your own erection, your own orgasm that can really make it hot.

for your woman too, right? I mean, that's hot.

Kirsten Trammell (: 37:00

Yeah, yes, yes. And I think too that there is, you we were kind of speaking to some of the practices that a man can do solo, but you can really incorporate some of these practices and so many more and beyond into the experiences that you have with your partner. Like even in looking at going back to like that penis massage and actually having that be with your partner, with your wife, with your girlfriend or whoever and you know, her like,

leading the charge and maybe exploring edging with you and her being the one that's like saying these beautiful things about your cock and like you being able to be in the experience of that. think that, you know, inviting even that in can be such a beautiful way to just start expanding what's possible.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 37:38

Hmm.

Yeah, I love that. And I think that even that, what you just described, like that partnered practice where, you know, maybe your partner is adoring your cock and participating in the edging with you and like cock worshiping while your self-pleasuring is super hot. And I can see how a lot of men might be challenged sometimes with that. Like a lot of men tend to go into that like giving role or they want to be the ones to sort of be giving and rocking her role to making sure she's taken care of.

that it can be hard, I think, to be in a more surrendered place or in a place where they're the ones receiving the attention. Have you found that to be true in your work? Or like, what would you say? Do you agree with that? Like, what would your comments be about that?

Kirsten Trammell (: 38:30

Yeah, yeah, think, know, and I'm like, just remembering the conversation that you and I had, because you had such incredible insight into how to navigate some of this reciprocal desire, or reciprocal pleasure, rather. And yeah, I definitely think, you know, in such a powerful and beautiful way, so many of the men that I work with, like they're coming in.

saying like, really want to be able to give more to my partner. I want to make her feel really deep pleasure and I don't know how and that's frustrating and I don't know what to do. And so recognizing that there's just this big desire to give and that kind of blocks the capacity to also be able to receive.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 39:13

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, and they have to learn, we all have to learn, I believe, how to really receive and to feel our own turn on our own pleasure, like how to be in that sensational state within our own bodies. That makes us actually usually more tuned to our partners. If we can feel ourselves more deeply, we're gonna be able to feel others more deeply. So that attunement's really important for a man, I think, that wants to...

Kirsten Trammell (: 39:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 39:43

see his partner experience more pleasure if he can attune more to her but the only way he'll be able to do that is if he develops more sensitivity.

Kirsten Trammell (: 39:51

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes, and this is like kind of a silly practice, but something that is coming to my mind that I'll invite men to do, whether it's even before like going on a date or before entering into a sexual experience is to actually spend some time connecting with both like the more like yang, I guess masculine if you will, and also yin, more like feminine energy within himself.

And so like some really like simple ways to do that is actually to Like I'll tell someone like go do 20 push-ups and then like sit in meditation and breathe in and out of your heart for two minutes or Like before you're walking out the door to go on that date like turn on like a heavy metal song and just really like dude out and then Like slow your body down and put on some really soothing tones and maybe do like some like heart opening postures like yoga postures

so that you can really drop more into your body and be present with both the yin and the yang, like energies within you both like that giving and that receiving state so that you can walk into an experience with a woman feeling all of you, not just one part of you.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 40:54

Mm-hmm.

that's beautiful. I love that practice. And I think there's a lot to be said also for a man who can and does take time to cultivate not just his masculine expression, but also his ability to be sensitive, to be vulnerable and to feel that he's gonna be much more available for a woman who's in her feminine, who's in her feeling heart more. I think it can really develop an appreciation.

for the vulnerability that a lot of women experience, particularly sexually, just because of how our bodies are wired too. I we are literally like the receptive principle and there's a lot of vulnerability in that. And I can see how men could really cultivate a lot more appreciation for his woman and what her experience is, which of course is gonna create more connection if you have more sensitivity and more attunement in that way and more of an appreciation for what she experiences that that's already gonna make you a better lover, like right there, right out of the gate.

Kirsten Trammell (: 42:04

Yeah, yeah, and I wanna say this too, that this doesn't have to be 100 % just like all on the man's responsibility and there can be this really beautiful, sorry, dynamic where you can work together to bring these different parts of yourself to light and just as like one of my favorite practices for couples to do but.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 42:14

Yeah.

Kirsten Trammell (: 42:31

is recognizing that oftentimes, this is kind of coming from a Tantric study that, you know, women, if you think of us, we're kind of like a magnet where we have a positive charge and a negative charge. And in a woman's body, her positive charge is in her heart space and her negative charge is in her sexual center. So like womb, vulva, pussy. And for the man, it's the inverse. So their negative charge is in the chest, positive charge is in the sexual center. And so...

Susan Taylor, MA (: 42:42

you

Kirsten Trammell (: 42:59

you can actually come together and use one another to create positive charges throughout both of your entire bodies. So coming together in that yab yang position and actually whether you're in a sexual state or even just clothed, spending a few minutes connecting and doing this in almost like a meditation where...

Susan Taylor, MA (: 43:08

Yeah.

Hmm.

Kirsten Trammell (: 43:22

when one partner is breathing in, let's say the woman is exhaling out of her positive charge out of her heart into her partner's heart. And then the man is breathing out of his cock into her pussy. And like, you can kind of get into this cyclical meditative breath, where you're really breathing in this positive charges into each other's body. And that can just be such a beautiful way to activate both of you really powerfully.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 43:34

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And I love also that that is a practice that can be done fully clothed. It's a sex practice that doesn't require anything other than just coming together, maybe in the yabium position or just through breath. And that's so beautiful. Love it.

Kirsten Trammell (: 44:07

Yeah,

I remember years ago I did this with a partner where, you know, if we were just feeling disconnected and, you know, don't have like an hour to be really intimate and connected, it's like, hey, we have five minutes, let's sit here together and be, and it's pretty incredible in time what can really, how powerful that can start to become.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 44:28

Yeah, I love that. So beautiful. Well, tell our listeners how they can find you. And if you have anything else that you want to share as we wrap up, how can they find you? How can people work with if they want to? And any last thoughts that we didn't touch on that you'd like for our listeners to hear?

Kirsten Trammell (: 44:46

Yeah, sure. Well, thank you so much for having me on. I know it was such a joy to have you on my show. And so it's beautiful to be able to connect with you again and be here with your community. And, you know, the easiest place to find me, all things are the Naked Connections. So that's my website, thenakedconnection.com. My podcast is The Naked Connection and I'm on social media as well, Naked Connections. So super easy.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 45:11

at the Naked Connection. love it. Yes, wonderful podcast. And it was

great to be a guest on that. I definitely encourage listeners here at Sex Talk Cafe to go check out Kirsten's podcast. You've got a lot of great guests, great topics that you cover over there at the Naked Connection.

Kirsten Trammell (: 45:16

Yes.

Yeah, yes, and we really dove into how to navigate sexless relationships. So if anyone is like feeling stuck, Susan knows what's up and check that out. yeah.

Susan Taylor, MA (: 45:31

Yes.

Thank you.

Well, it's been such a delight having you today, Kirsten. Thank you so much for being my guest on the Sex Talk Cafe.

Kirsten Trammell (: 45:44

Thank you, Susan.