Connection without Compromise with Alexandra Stockwell, MD

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 00:01

Well, hello everybody and welcome back to the Sex Talk Cafe. I am really excited about my guest, Alexandra Stockwell, MD, who's here with me today to talk about some really awesome things that I think is going to be exceptionally helpful, particularly for those of you who are in relationships. Let me go ahead and just introduce Alexandra. Alexandra Stockwell is also known as the intimacy doctor. She's widely known for her ability to catalyze immediate and profound shifts in high achieving couples who want it

Dr. Alexander is the bestselling author of Uncompromising Intimacy, creator of the Aligned and Hot Marriage Program, host of the Intimate Marriage Podcast, a wife of 28 years and a mother of four. Couples who work with her discover the key to passion, fulfillment, intimacy, and success isn't compromise, it's being unwilling to compromise. Because when both people feel free to be themselves, the relationship is juicy,

erotically alive and deeply nourishing. And welcome to the Sex Talk Cafe, Alexandra. I'm so excited to have you here today.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 01:05

I'm really glad to be here, Susan. We've had a few different conversations and I'm happy that people get to hear this one.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 01:12

Yes, and it just sounds like you speak and you've written on some topics here that I think are so relevant to so many couples. I cannot wait to dive into the conversation around compromise and why that's not the key. I think so many couples think that that's what relationships are all about. We hear that all the time, right? Like, relationships are all about compromise. It's such bullshit.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 01:32

It is d-

It's such bullshit and it definitely is the most common relationship advice that is given. Like people have different resources, different inputs, different models, but I think consistently everyone has encountered you really need to be good at compromise if you want to have a successful marriage. And it is just completely wrong. I mean, if you want to have...

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 01:41

Mmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 02:01

a pleasant, bland companionship, then compromise is a winning move. But if you want emotional intimacy, erotic aliveness, fulfillment and nourishment and expansion and growth in your relationship, compromise is not your friend. will just undercut what happens.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 02:27

Yeah, I could not agree more. And I'm excited to really dig into this. I've got a lot of questions on my mind. I know my listeners probably have some questions about this too. Before we dive into this conversation, I would love to know more just about you and your background and a little bit of your story of how you ended up here working with intimacy couples relationships. And you have a background as a medical doctor. So can you just tell us a little bit of your story and your journey and how do we find you here today?

Tell us more about that.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 02:59

Yes, well, let me just say that if I had had my own crystal ball when I was younger, I never would have imagined that this would have been me. I grew up in a home where my mother and I never discussed sex until I'd already had two children. So this was not my familiar thing. I just never imagined I'd be so open. But I think it's so important because as human beings,

We are mammals and we learn through imitation and modeling. And so it's so important to have the kind of conversations that happen on sex talk cafe. So both of my parents, well, my parents were divorced from one another. My mother got divorced again. I, my husband's parents were divorced when he was young. So going into marriage, we had a lot of love, but I very consciously did not assume that we would remain.

married because I just it was just hard for me to picture how that would work. But I went for it and I really we really loved one another. We met the first week of medical school. He's a he's a practicing physician still. And what that meant is that we got together a few weeks later and the first 10 or so years of our relationship, which included marriage and one child just after my

our third year of medical school, one just before my internship, the hard work of taking exams and then residency training and long hours. This was before the law was passed that limits how long doctors have patient hours. So we were routinely working 36 hours. And the point that I mean to say is that we did not have a lot of time with one another. There were no leisurely weekends in bed, just

kind of daydreaming, napping and making love again. We never had time for any of that. And we had a very strong relationship. Many people admired us from the outside in terms of our compatibility. We were good at making financial decisions together. We were aligned with supporting one another in our careers and our parenting as well. But the sex itself was kind of what I call functional sex. We were both having orgasms.

But afterwards I didn't feel closer to him and it was nothing that the poets write about in terms of kind of intergalactic expansion or ecstasy. It was fun. I'm not knocking it and I know it wasn't a sexless marriage. So that was a plus for me, but it just was functional. It wasn't fantastic.

I always assumed that when we had more time, that naturally, because of the quality of our love and alignment in the rest of our life, the sex would just take care of itself and heat back up or heat up for the first time, quite frankly. So fast forward 10 years and I'm not working any nights or weekends. We had a significant gap.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 06:06

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 06:19

after our first two children, so we had years without babies in diapers. My husband was home most nights and weekends. And so the point is that we had time.

But there wasn't much that changed. And that was when I had one of my biggest insights into sexy marital dynamics, and that is that time is not enough. You do not just need more time. I think for parents with young children, it's easy to think, we need more time together. That is important, but totally inadequate to really change things. So.

Based on my background and my experiences and my mutual love with my husband, I then had the question, you know, is it possible to learn how to connect more deeply? Is it possible to expand sexuality to become a cherished part of our relationship rather than energetically kind of ancillary? And I had done

a lot of personal growth myself already and learn to take responsibility for my emotions and my vibe and just being a woman with feeling good about being a woman, I would say. And so I wanted to really be able to bring that into our intimacy and sex. And also, I have to say that when this became really important to me,

because it was a process. I was pregnant with our fourth child and I knew that after having a child, basically a hundred percent of couples have a drop in the quality of sexual connection. And I really wanted to figure out how to maintain it and not go back to zero because we had made some progress. And so I really went on a journey for my own sake and the sake of my marriage. I ended up doing a very in-depth training

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 08:11

term.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 08:26

which was for laypeople and for, it was also a coach training, but at the time I didn't even know what a coach was. And so I was just curious to see how they taught these things. And I went to the teaching lab and I thought, this is what I want to do. So there's more to the story, but I think that's it in broad strokes.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 08:47

Yeah.

Well, and right. And so I'm curious. So now as an intimacy expert and coach, how does your medical background, if at all, does it inform the work that you do now with couples?

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 09:02

Well, I do not practice medicine anymore. I really don't offer that. I don't have a medical license. I didn't maintain my license once. I've been doing this for a long time, but it does inform me because it brings a certain gravitas to how I interact with couples. I have just in delivering babies and doing GYN exams, like I'm extremely comfortable with all of the anatomy and

everything that's involved. And I think one of the biggest ways that having practiced medicine previously is relevant is that basically there's nothing that any client could say to me that would shock me. There might be things that happen that that someone tells that surprise me because I didn't it didn't expect it. I don't you know, I don't have a x-ray vision into people's lives, but there's nothing that

shocks me because the whole range of human experience or a lot of it was just part of my everyday life for a while.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 10:12

Yeah, that makes sense.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 10:15

And I think very scientifically, like there are all these other very obvious things. think very scientifically, I really enjoy taking what can feel like amorphous, flowy, feminine concepts and expressing them in a very grounded way that men in particular respond to, as well as smart, ambitious women who are used to using their minds to really consume their lives.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 10:18

Ha

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 10:45

And it's weird to have to check intelligence at the door. And I don't think you are like this at all. It's one of the reasons it's such a pleasure to converse with you. But I think in general, in our industry, there's a kind of mental shallowness in a lot of the discussions about sexuality and what it means to really stoke passion. think this shows, one of the ways this shows up is that

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 10:49

Yeah.

Thank you.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 11:13

the vast majority of sex and intimacy coaches are either young and not ever married or, you know, in the first five years of marriage and they are not, they're in a position to have some understanding and training, but they are not in a position to bring a certain.

depth of human experience, is often so relevant for couples have been together for a while, or maybe they haven't been together for a while, but just more mature people.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 11:37

Right.

Yeah, absolutely. I think in this profession, the wisdom of life experience, can't get that in any other way other than living life and having gone, walked the path and gone through the flames of life and relationship. And I would agree with you too. I think you bring up a good point. There's two sides here though that I'd like to dive into for a minute. There can be a lot of fluff, right? Sort of this intangible.

intimacy, the whole conversation and some of the approaches that are out there can be sort of nebulous. And it is important to have things that are grounded in proven methodologies and also scientific facts. And we understand so much more now about our brains and our nervous systems and how men and women are wired differently. mean, literally, like that is not negotiable. Like we have different hormones running through our bodies. have different amounts of

gray and white brain matter in our brains by virtue of being male or female. those things I think are really important to understand and it's great to be able to bring science in. And I think the other, the flip side though, and I wonder if you've seen this, where I see some couples get stuck is the very educated couples that are out there and they're trying to read the books. You know, some very well-known authors. know you're an author yourself and I have not read your book, which I'll need to, but sometimes can get too stuck and the science is...

great, but where I see couples get stuck is they come to me and well, we read this book and this is great, but we don't understand how to actually apply that in a way that's practical. So I think we really need to have both. We need the science and understanding physiologically, psychologically what's happening. We also need the more intangible things like emotional and energetic and what you know.

that side of things I think is really important. You find that more in the tantra circles. We need both, but I'm curious, do you ever find that you work with couples who are kind of stuck in not understanding how do they actually apply the things that maybe they've read about in a book or in a study, for example?

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 13:43

Yeah, so I completely concur with you. The way that I usually say it, which is a lot less gracious than you, is that on the one hand, there are people talking about sex and all these juicy topics in this extremely dry clinical manner that follows the scientific standards. And then on the other hand, yeah.

but not just tantra. I'm not specifically knocking tantra, but a lot of the fluffy relationship coach and informational material on social media and elsewhere, it's just hard to know what they mean because it's just filled with terminology, which if you know the terminology, that's great, but I'm really wanting to speak to the people who aren't...

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 14:28

you

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 14:39

already immersed in going to Bali for a month at a time and all of this sort of thing, just like regular intelligent people who, you know, live in the suburbs, live in the city, live in rural areas and are, you know, that, that their focus on sex is not taking over their life. It is in the right compartment for them. And in that case, dry clinical stuff and

breathy obtuse terminology neither one of them actually serve which is a slightly different question than the one that you asked and what I would say in terms of Experience working with clients who read the books and aren't sure how to apply it. Don't This doesn't come up very often, but I really think the main place where I personally encounter that with my clients is with Esther Perel who I think is an absolute

genius. is she has done humanity a service in her articulation of the problem. I just think with both of her books, she she just does a beautiful job of articulating the challenges and the problem. But she doesn't actually offer any solutions.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 15:55

Right, I find that that's what I'm saying. I think it's really common in a lot of the resources that most couples are listening to podcasts or they're reading books usually before they take the next step, which is to reach out to professional like you or myself to actually bridge that gap. And I have run into that same challenge myself and almost every couple that comes to me has some version of that.

I think it's very easy to be really beautiful and flowery about some of these challenges or concepts. David Data, I'm a huge fan of David Data, have read all his books. He is a phenomenal writer. But some of the stuff is kind of flowery. You don't really understand, like how do I, in any kind of a practical way, it's not really enough for us to take that next step. I think at some point we have to reach out, we have to put ourselves in a situation where we're actually working with someone that can lead us into some of the things that are described in books by such authors.

That makes sense.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 16:48

Yes,

I agree. And I want to add the point that I suppose comes up for me more often, but is totally related to what you're saying. And that is that, especially for women who are

kind of running their lives, running their households who are overseeing the progress of the relationship. Now, this is definitely something that men experience as well, but whether it's one of them or both of them, they feel a kind of responsibility for how things go and want to manage their partner. That is never sexy and that is never helpful to...

ignite passion. It's just the wrong dynamic. It's much more of a parent-child dynamic or manager-employee dynamic. And so one of the tremendous benefits of working with you and working with me is that they can whoever like each person in the couple can manage their own experience, but they don't have to manage their partner's experience too.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 17:35

Yeah, for sure.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 18:00

And I think that is one of the deepest gifts that people don't know they're going to get until they're experiencing it.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 18:06

Yeah, that can be a big leap. I see that a lot in my practice as well, and a lot of times. I think I probably have been that woman in relationship in the past, you know? And it completely turns the whole sexy dynamic on its head. And that's why there's no sex drive. I want to shift gears a little bit, though. I want to come back to this conversation of compromise, because I feel like you really have a good insight into this piece. And I think this is going to be such a useful piece for our listeners today to maybe have a new perspective on why.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 18:27

Mm-hmm.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 18:35

is compromise not the solution? And why have we been told that it is? Because that's where most of us are brainwashed to think that's the secret to relationship. And you have been married for 28 years with four kids, so I think that you probably have a really good life history and some good wisdom to share with us. And tell us about this. And what have you learned? What have you discovered around compromise? Why is it not the solution?

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 19:03

Okay, well, the first thing really is to define it. And I think compromise is not a particularly obtuse word. We know what it means. But when I use the word compromise in the context of intimate relating, what I'm really thinking is it's a phenomenon when one person withholds who they are or what is true for them.

so that their partner is more comfortable. So I might have desires to go to Thai food when typically what we do is go to an Italian restaurant. I might have desires for a luscious sensual massage before any kind of overt sexual activity between the two of us. I might.

have a real challenge at work. Like it's across the board, small things and big things, but very often just to manage and keep going with what seems to be working. I withhold what's real and true inside me so that my partner is more comfortable. It doesn't have to deal with feeling inadequate. Doesn't have to.

consider anything new, like they're, they're in each couple this plays out in different ways, but it seems like it's the nicer thing to do to just not speak up, to keep the peace. And again, if you want a bland, pleasant companionship, this works to create that, but the cost is in the fact that every time

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 20:39

Hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 20:56

I don't need to tell my husband everything, but anytime I'm withholding and I feel like I can't say something, it essentially puts up a little wall or a big wall between us. And when we accumulate these little and big walls because I'm compromising, I'm not really sharing the truth of who I am, it creates a form of disconnection and

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 21:19

Hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 21:24

a cost in emotional intimacy which directly leads into negative consequences when it comes into sexual intimacy.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 21:33

Absolutely,

and I think what I'm hearing, like in the language that I would use for this, what you're describing is when we tolerate, we say yes when we really maybe feel a no or mean no, we're just sort of going, it's like that going along with things just to keep the other person happy.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 21:39

Mm.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 21:50

We're tolerating, we're giving in, we're saying yes. In an effort, there's a lot of things going on under this, believe. In an effort to not rock the boat, to keep the other person happy, sometimes we're afraid to express our desires because we don't want to be too much, or we don't want to be rejected, or we don't want to be judged. So it's easier to just go along with things. And yeah, that doesn't create more connection. In fact, like what you said, it creates more disconnection. And I am.

curious, because when I hear the word compromise, a lot of times what I think of is when two couples want two completely different things. Sorry, two people want two different things. One person wants A, the other person wants B. And so you have to somehow come to an agreement. And oftentimes, compromise is the answer to that, which usually means at least one person's not getting what they want at all, or possibly both people aren't really getting.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 22:27

Mm-hmm.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 22:45

what either of them wanted, some mixed around version that isn't really meeting the needs or desires of either. And I'm kind of curious if that lands for you or if you would agree that that's also like a form of compromise, like another way that compromise shows up in relationships.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 23:01

It definitely does. And, this is why when I talk about uncompromising intimacy, and I use the word uncompromising in the context of relationships, I don't mean a kind of rigid stick to exactly what you want without any deviation or consideration of your partner. That is not the opposite of compromise.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 23:24

Yeah.

That's

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 23:30

that you always get your own way.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 23:30

called abuse. Selfishness.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 23:33

Yes, right. No, that's, that's essentially narcissism. Like, no, the antidote to compromise is not narcissism. The antidote or alternative to compromise is finding the way to share the truth of who you are, the reality of what you want in a way that your partner can receive it and ideally share with you as well. So going to your example of.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 23:37

Yeah.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 24:03

one person wants A and the other person wants B and it's not possible to do both simultaneously, it's easy to think of restaurants. let's say my husband and children love Italian food and I'm okay with it. And so we've been going to Italian food whenever we go out for years. And I'm really craving

or some kind of more, I don't know, food from Iraq. I don't know exactly know what that would be, but anyway.

Compromise would be just not saying anything and going for Italian. bringing in principles of uncompromising intimacy, I might say, know, we go to Italian and I enjoy myself, but I'm really craving Thai. And I just wanted you to know that. And then maybe the family goes for Thai food. Maybe...

I get Thai takeout, they get Italian takeout and we eat in a park. Maybe they have something to eat and so they're not really that hungry anymore and we go to Thai food. Or maybe we still go to the Italian restaurant, but it feels really different because my husband knows that it's a gift that I'm giving him that we're going to the Italian restaurant. And it doesn't feel like compromise because I feel seen.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 25:43

Yeah.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 25:45

I feel appreciated. He knows what this means. And so instead of just like pushing things down or acquiescing and tolerating, which is all fodder for either dissociation or resentment, that instead my going to the Italian place, which is not what I would have chosen for myself, ends up bringing us closer together because

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 25:54

You

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 26:13

there's a kind of vulnerability and intimacy. And so I think it's the quality of how we navigate it, not necessarily the specific outcome.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 26:22

Yeah, and I guess how I might describe this is you're bringing clarity. So it's not just a sort of in the shadows sort of acquiescing and not saying anything. Instead, I'm actually bringing clarity to my desires and identifying that, I'm willing to do Italian. My desire would be Thai food, but I'm willing with an open heart to go have Italian food with you. And anytime there's clarity, there's more connection. There's more intimacy when we have clarity. So that's kind what I'm hearing. That would be like my language, how I would interpret what you're saying.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 26:48

Yeah, I really like.

I like

how you put it and I guess I would say clarity with kindness.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 26:56

Yeah.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 26:57

because just clarity.

But then, yeah, to do it with kindness, I think, is magnificent. That is the antidote to compromise.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 27:12

Absolutely. I had a friend once that had a really interesting description of compromise versus sacrifice in relationship. And I really liked his understanding of this. And I'm going to throw it out here and just kind of see what you think of it. It resonated with me a lot. And he said, compromise feels bad. Like, it doesn't feel good in our bodies. There's sort of a feeling of ick when we go into compromise.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 27:27

Okay.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 27:38

Sacrifice is when we give something up for something greater and it feels good in our bodies.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 27:46

You know, I like where he's going with that. It's a little too Catholic and martyr-dummish for me personally, because sacrifice, I mean, it depends how we take the word sacrifice. If it feels good in the body, I probably wouldn't, I might use the word devotion instead.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 27:55

Hmm.

giving something up for something greater. So that would be the definition of that, which sure, think devotion could also work, but sort of that concept of instead of giving something up and it feels bad, I give something up and it feels good because it's moving towards something greater, deeper connection or for something, you know, like go, I'm sure in medical school you had to make some sacrifices. I did when I was in graduate school for my master's degree.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 28:25

Yes.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 28:38

but I was going for something that was going to elevate my life, that was gonna take me to, give me something that I wouldn't be able to do otherwise. So the sacrifices or the things I gave up were hard but worth it and it felt good because I was going for something greater, whereas compromise I think can sometimes feel like I'm giving something up and there's not much reward in it. There's an ick feeling a lot of times to that.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 28:59

Well, I definitely, definitely agree with that ick feeling. And what you're saying really makes me think of this concept of the third, where in any relationship there's with two people, there's one person, the other person, and then the relationship itself. And sometimes in thinking about how to navigate something, there might be what I want.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 29:09

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 29:26

And then there's what my husband wants, which is different. And then there's what is good for our marriage, what is good for our relationship. And I think when you're talking about sacrifice in that way, it reminds me of choosing what's best for our relationship, because what's best for our relationship is going to be good for each of us as well.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 29:35

Yeah.

Yeah.

yeah, I love that. think a lot of times people don't look at that concept in the way you just described it. And that's really what I might call like an evolutionary perspective, an evolutionary partnership where we're looking at what, there's this relationship between, there's two people that create the relationship. But then if we look at it in that regard, that's what truly can grow us. When we look at what's best for this union, what's best for this sacred relating, it's a completely different lens on which to make decisions. Would you agree?

And we can get out of that place where we're sort of stuck in, want this and you want that, and we're in that stuck place. We can look at really what's best for our marriage and what's best for the growth of where we're headed and what we're wanting for this union.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 30:34

Yeah, I really agree with that. And it doesn't feel like compromise when we're doing it in service of exactly what you just said. And this really is the context for something that I say often, which is that intimate relationships are the vehicle, are the ultimate vehicle for personal growth. think that, you know, exactly what you just said, just

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 30:38

Mm-hmm.

Yes, I agree.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 31:01

points to all of the personal evolution that is available within relationship.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 31:06

Yeah.

absolutely. I mean, I think we can grow on our own as well, but that hits a limit at a certain point. don't become ourselves by ourselves, is what one of my mentors once said. And I really love that concept that we literally need others and we need community in order to become who we're meant to be. We don't do it in isolation, especially when it comes to things like intimacy and sex, which can carry so much shame. When couples are having problems in that area, it's not a...

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 31:18

Mm.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 31:34

It's not something they want to go talk about on Facebook, right? But yet we need community, we need connection, we need to be in the company of other couples who are also growing together and facing similar challenges. We can learn so much from that and we don't need to be ashamed.

I want to switch gears slightly. I mean, I'll let you respond to that, but I do want to dive into I think we have a real common ground on this idea that this idea of mismatched libido is a myth. I know that I speak to that a lot. Like, I just think we need a whole reframe on that entire conversation that's happening out there in the world. And I think that you have your own unique perspective on that. So I would love to kind of hear from you around why is that a myth and what do we do about it?

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 32:14

Okay, yeah, I really my understanding of how we're similar and how we're different is really quite delightful and I'll say what it is. But I think first of all, yes, the myth of mismatched libido is fundamentally pointing to the reality that that's not set in stone. It's akin to the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset, whereas

Where in a growth mindset we we know that people can grow and change and a fixed mindset is kind of thinking well people are the way they are so similarly if a woman specifically has low libido that she's kind of Committed to that. It's a it's a sentence. It's it's like the truth of her physiology and That just isn't true and you and I completely agree on that and when I interviewed you on my podcast I just loved hearing you speak about

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 33:02

Right.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 33:13

the different ways that a woman can really consider and access and kind of recreate the...

how a woman can really recreate her relationship with her own libido. I'm in complete agreement with what you say and can add to that. But the place that I often put my attention is speaking to men about what it means for there to be mismatched libido and for it to be a myth. Because I really believe that if what is on the menu isn't appealing, then a woman's not going to want

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 33:53

Hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 33:56

more of it. So for a man who feels like he's the high desire partner, she's the low desire partner, and he's stuck with a low desire partner, no, no, no, no, no. That means that it's his job to discover ways of being and skills and attunement and to become the kind of lover that she would want more of. Like, yes,

It's her responsibility to manage her own mind and emotions and body. And he's not in need of just sitting on the sidelines waiting for her to be ready for her to do her work. No, he needs to make sure that what is on the menu is something that she's going to find appealing, that she's going to want more of because

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 34:41

Thanks.

Yeah.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 34:52

Maybe it was fine when she was in her 20s and 30s and she had more intrinsic spontaneous desire. But at the point at which she's at the time of life or in the phase of relationship where responsive desire is going to be much more predominant. It's on him to make sure what is on the menu is so appealing that she's looking forward to it.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 35:22

Well, I'd love to hear more about this, because I feel like there can be also this myth propagated, and I don't disagree with you, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I do want to poke at this a little bit. Yeah, because there's also this myth out there that men have to be the ones to figure it all out, and thus women are abdicated of having to know what their desires are, what turns them on, or what they even want on the menu. And I think that that really creates a lot of problems where all the pressures on the man to have to just sort of guess or figure it out or read smoke signals.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 35:32

Okay, great. I love it.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 35:50

I'm a really big advocate of women being empowered too to find their voice, know what they like and want, be able to use it. And if they so choose, then they can sort of abdicate that at later point, but you can't give something up that you've never had. And so I don't like to perpetuate that myth that men have to figure women out entirely of their own accord and read smoke signals. And not that that's what you're saying, but that's just what I run into a lot. And just to clarify for our listeners,

I don't think that's what you're saying, but could you just respond to that for a minute? And do you agree that there's sort of a lot of pressure on men to just figure, to fix the problem, and women are sort of off the hook?

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 36:19

Yeah.

I totally agree with that. And the reason that I presenced what I just said is because often a man can just feel totally helpless. Like he has no idea what to do except wait. And so I'm saying what I'm saying as inspiration for it actually to be a collaborative process to speak to what you said.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 36:36

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 36:53

I'm not sure exactly how many times I have assigned to a woman and a heteronormative couple to doesn't need to be totally comprehensive, but to write a user's manual to write a manual for how to win with her. Maybe it's related to sex, but also just more broadly, like what would have her feel better in the relationship? And if she can

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 37:12

Hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 37:21

identify her desires, take responsibility for knowing herself and figuring herself out, and then essentially write it down. It can be expository, can be bullet points, but to give like, these are the ways that someone can win with me because I love this. And interestingly, I've had a lot of women excited about that.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 37:44

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 37:50

but none have ever actually done that assignment. It is so confronting to fully, I think, stepping into knowing our sexuality and communicating about that while a challenging and worthwhile activity, that is something that many, many, many more women have done. But to actually say, you know, to my husband, you know, I...

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 37:54

my gosh, wow.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 38:20

I love that you want this to be a wonderful marriage. And these are ways that I'm going to respond and we're both going to feel good. That is very confronting. There is so much conditioning around being a handless maiden, around being a damsel in distress, around wanting to be rescued by Prince Charming, who is never coming.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 38:35

Yeah.

you

It's not

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 38:48

No matter

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 38:48

coming.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 38:49

how great a man is, that is not a dynamic that contributes to lasting, self-propagating passion and connection. So yes, I am a big yes to what you've just said. And I think

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 38:56

Right.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 39:06

It just needs to be balanced depending on who's listening that as women, we absolutely need to be mistresses of our own wellbeing across the board. And for our men to just wait until we reconnect with our libido and then continue doing what was done before that is just not worth reconnecting to one's libido for partnered play.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 39:10

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah, you can't just sit on the sidelines and think something's gonna get better. I feel like I'm shocked. I love that practice. I have something similar I do with couples called the relationship roadmap, which is all about getting super clear on what your needs are and how they are uniquely fulfilled for you. And you learn your partner and you trade roadmaps and you literally have the operating manual. I think that's such a beautiful practice. I'm shocked that you've not had a female client do that. But I think one of things that I see a lot with women is not

knowing they don't know what they want, they don't know how to know what they want. an exercise like that can be extremely confronting. It's like the deer in the headlights syndrome, right? Like, don't know what I want. And if their partner is really...

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 40:15

Well, I really like what

you've said about each of them doing an operating manual and then swapping. can see that that would be a lot more productive, quite frankly.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 40:25

It's

helpful because then you have the operating instructions for each other. And if you just focus on that, on the giving of that thing, like it resolves a lot of problems. think too often we get caught in, well, he's not doing meeting my needs, so I'm not going to meet him. And we get in that stalwart position where nobody's giving and everyone's waiting for their needs to be met first. And we have to get out of that. think the only way to resolve that is through focusing on what can I give that.

There's another brilliant spiritual teacher on sacred sexuality and one of things he said that I just love is you'll never get what you want. The only thing can do is give what you want in life, in relationships. I mean, I think we do sometimes get what we want, but if we have that stance all the time, we can get very self-centered and self-focused. And I know that when I get stuck sometimes in that place, well, my needs aren't being met and I'm feeling this and I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I try to remember, you know, the thing that I'm desiring right now, can I give that?

Can I give that to my partner? Or can I ask? I can advocate. I can do my best to try to ask to receive the thing that I need. I can use my voice to ask for that. And again, I think that brings us back into this idea of not compromising, right? We're bringing clarity. We're owning our desires. We're not falling into the patterns that so often happen in intimate relationships where two people are withholding, which as you said, never creates more passion or intimacy.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 41:41

Yes, and a lot of my focus is in going with the example that you just said, how to ask for what you want so that it feels really good to give it to you. Because it's not just expressing what we want. It's just too likely that that comes off as critical or pointing to inadequacy. other words, step one is knowing what I want.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 42:01

Yeah.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 42:08

Step two is conveying that so that my husband doesn't become angry or defensive and shut down. that is actually a reinforcement for compromise because why would I say it if that's what the result is? So a lot of my focus is on how do you express yourself so that the communication is wonderful for both of you? Because yes.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 42:18

Right.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 42:37

We need to know what we want, but there's so much in saying it, so it inspires action rather than a complicated emotional reaction in our partner. And that doesn't mean that I need to take responsibility for my husband's emotions, but I do need to take responsibility for communicating in a way that is most conducive to a win-win for both of us.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 43:02

I mean, absolutely, that's such a huge thing. I think there's so many unconscious patterns that we bring into our communication relationships, we don't even realize we're shutting our partners down. We're working against ourselves instead of learning a skill so that we can really communicate in way that the other person can hear and everybody gets what they want, usually when that happens. So there's much more likelihood of it.

So I would love to ask just one more question before we start to wind down. What is your secret? So you've been married for 28 years, four kids. What would you say your secret is for keeping passion alive in long-term relationships? And how have you done it? What's a tip that you could give to our listeners or something that maybe they could even implement today that would help them?

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 43:29

Okay.

Yeah, well, I'll answer about me and then focus on putting it as a tip. from the beginning, we were very clear that the context for our bond, the purpose of our marriage was our own and one another's personal growth. So, yes, it was financially advantageous to get married. Yes, we wanted to have children. There were all these more

typical things that brought us together, but really the foundation of our relationship has been a commitment to our own and one another's personal growth. And that has taken us into all kinds of places that we never would have imagined. And so when things are challenging or flat and stale or any of the other

Qualities that aren't appealing in a relationship One of the first things that I do is Look at how like what growth is there here, but to make it a much more practical thing Specifically with relate with regard to passion building on this idea of uncompromising intimacy When my husband and I go through a phase where there's less sex or

the sex isn't as electric or anything is kind of stale or dehydrated to any degree. As soon as I become aware of it and uncomfortable with it, the very next thing that I do is ask myself, is there something that I haven't expressed? And probably more than 80 % of the times the answer is yes.

could be something that he said or did that was minor, but it irked me. It was triggering or activating, even though it was like minor in the moment. It could be something big that we're figuring out and I just don't feel aligned. Like it could be any number of things. And sometimes it's not even about him. It might, I mean, it might be that

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 45:53

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 46:13

I'm feeling sorrow about something and I just need him to know that. Like it's not always about a thing he did or didn't do. so when I, I don't mean come at him with a fire hose, but when I. Vulnerably share and I have.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 46:22

Hmm.

or yeah.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 46:40

You know, a way I teach couples to do vulnerable shares so that they're successful. One of the most important things is first asking if it's a good time. I have something vulnerable to share with you. you available to hear it now? And very often just expressing what I haven't expressed or what I haven't even known needs to be expressed. It kind of gets the energy moving again. Does that mean that we

look at one another and, you know, passionately move towards the bed. Sometimes, but not always, but it's like things start moving and they start feeling more alive and connected again. Now, the times when I don't, I scan and I don't have something that I withheld, I actually remember one time I said to my husband,

Is there anything that you have your mind on and you haven't shared with me? And my husband is more introverted than not. And I remember he paused and he thought a while and I'm like feeling nervous inside wondering what this is. And then he looked at me and he said, yes. And like, I felt like my heart like sink. You know, I, I'm like, uh-oh, you know, what is it? And then he went on to talk about

something extremely challenging at work. He's chief of the department and there was something that was compromising patient care or it had the potential to and it really was weighing on his heart and mind. He's a very high integrity physician and it meant that there just was less attention and energy available to connect with me because this was weighing on him and so he talked it through with me.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 48:26

you

Hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 48:36

And I listened and I said, do you want any suggestions? And he said, no. And I know enough to then not give all my brilliant suggestions. That's a hard one lesson. And after that, things just felt softer and more connected. So. I really want to convey that, you know, we have a very hot marriage.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 48:48

you

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 49:06

a lot hotter than it was the first 10 years and uncompromising intimacy in the sense that we've been talking about really is the key. But I do want to put like a warning label on what I've said. If you're a woman listening, I am not encouraging you to go say everything to your spouse. I am encouraging you

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 49:30

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 49:34

to consider what you haven't said and ideally write it all down. Journal, talk to a professional, like work through your stuff. This is not a call to venting or dumping on your spouse. It's a call to knowing what's alive in you, working it through and then peacefully, vulnerably.

offering it to your spouse in a way that then opens up the connection again.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 50:10

Love that, thank you so much for sharing that. We'll tell our listeners how they can find you and learn about some of your offerings.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 50:20

AlexandraStockwell.com is my website and from there you can find my podcast, the Intimate Marriage podcast, all my social media, my book, my various online programs, private relationship and intimacy coaching. It's all at AlexandraStockwell.com.

Susan Morgan Taylor, MA (: 50:39

Well, Alexander, thank you so much for being a guest on the Sex Talk Cafe. Today it's been a delight to have you.

Alexandra Stockwell, MD (: 50:45

Thank you so much, Susan.